group were mistakenly named the Dynamics, back in 1962, however, as the LOS ANGELES (Billboard) Singer Ron Banks, a founding member of R&B group the Dramatics, died Thursday (March 4) at his Detroit home of a reported heart attack. You can customize the cemeteries you volunteer for by selecting or deselecting below. WebWilliam "Wee Gee" Howard - You've Been A Part Of Me DjDirtyOl 6.45K subscribers Subscribe 7.3K views 8 years ago My favorite classic series From his album "Hold On That single was followed by the R&B Top Ten single "Get Up and Get Down.". When Ron Banks also decided to try a solo career, the group disbanded for a few years, but re-formed in the mid-1980s, with Howard returning to join Reynolds, Mayes, Ford and Banks to record for Fantasy Records. These two groups toured the concert circuit for four years before Banks' group won a court battle, when they bought Howard and Wilkins out and gained full access to the name. Drama (Groovesville Records 1994), Gimme Some Good Soul Music (Fantasy Records 1995), A William Franklin Wee Gee Howard The same year, the group released the album 'The Dramatic Way', which contained larry demps, elbert wilkins, ron banks, roderick davis and larry cleveland reed, Ronald Dean Banks (b. 'What You See Is What You Get'. Reynolds legally took the trademark rights to the name The Dramatics.[19]. Dramatic Jackpot (ABC Records 1975), Do Dramatics However, producer Don Davis re-signed them to Bolt, a Stax subsidiary, in 1971 after the group teamed up with Detroit writer-producer, Tony Hester. L.J. Variations: Viewing All | Elbert Wilkins. Reynolds and Lenny Mays replaced Wilkins and Howard in 1973, the core of the group was set. The city of Detroit also named a street after The Dramatics in the Woodbridge He sang with a group called the Sir Primes whilst at high school. The group lineup continued to change, but once L.J. By 1967, Motown had absorbed the entire Golden World Records operation. Becoming a Find a Grave member is fast, easy and FREE. Actor: Up the Creek. L.J. Dramatics Founder Ron Banks Dies WebWilliam Howard. Reynolds left to go solo in 1981 and Larry Demps decided to go into teaching and spend more time with his family, after having joined the group's original line-up in 1964 with Banks. the NCI label in 2002. the group released the song 'Hey You! There was an error deleting this problem. [10] This song was re-released as the "B" side to the hit, "Toast To The Fool" (Volt VOA 4082) three years later. In 1967, His in December 1971. They The group was depicted in the 2017 film Detroit. Former member Larry Reed was caught up in the events of the riot, taking refuge at the former Algiers Motel off Woodward Avenue. William They moved to Sport label in 1967 and released their first single there, All Because of You. It was also to be their first single to make a dent on the chats, becoming only a minor R&B hit. Reynolds, who had spoken to Ron just minutes earlier. LOS ANGELES (Billboard) Singer Ron Banks, a founding member of R&B group the Dramatics, died Thursday (March 4) at his Detroit home of a reported heart attack. He became a Dramatic in 1968, before the group was signed by Stax Records of Memphis. Their members at this time were Ron Banks (who died of a heart attack on March 4, 2010, at the age of 58), William "Wee Gee" Howard(who died of a heart attack on February 22, 2000, at the age of 49), Elbert Wilkins (who died of a heart attack on December 13, 1992, at the age of 45), and keyboardist James Mack Brown (who died on November 28, 2008, at the age of 58). Whatcha See Is Whatcha 3: WeeGee not only had a versatile voice that was golden, but he was absolute magic as an entertainer with his dancing, humorous banter with the audience, and could holdpeople hungry for more with every performance. He rejoined The Dramatics for their reunion in 1986, but left again in 1989, replaced by Steve Boyd-Barnett.Cause of death: Heart attack. Banks, whose sweet falsetto helped give the Dramatics its signature sound, was a Detroit native who was born May 10, 1951. The Story of the Dramatics Banks, whose sweet falsetto helped give the Dramatics its signature sound, was a Detroit native who was born May 10, 1951. Vocalist who came to prominence as a member of American soul group, The Dramatics. The Dramatics Live - 1988 / Positive State Of Mind - 1989 / Stone Cold - 1990 / Mellow Drama - 1994 / A Dramatic Christmas - 1997 / Look Inside - 2002 BIRTH: 1 May 1947 Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, USA. The He was In 1982, the Dramatics disbanded but reunited in 1985. Eventually Reynolds used to pinch-hit for Howard during his absences. The Dramatics The album, Stone Cold followed in 1990 and then the album, If You Come Back to Me in 2000. Dramatics singer Willie Sugar Bear In 1974, 2023 COPYRIGHT ALL RIGHTS RESERVED WBSS MEDIA LTD, https://www.discogs.com/artist/448325-William-Howard. By 1967, Motown had absorbed the entire Golden World Records operation. Due to a misprint, Wingate changed the name of the group from The Dynamics to The Dramatics in 1966 for the group's second release, "Inky Dinky Wang Dang Doo". Shortly after the success of their first album, Howard and Wilkins left the group and formed their own version of The Dramatics, recording the single "No Rebate On Love" on Mainstream Records. Add to your scrapbook. (aged 45) In Groups: The Dramatics. The ensemble became a quintet in 1967, signing with the Sports label and renaming themselves the Dramatics. The group recorded for Don Davis' Groovesville and later Great Lakes music production companies during the 1970s, although the recordings appeared on several labels. WILLIAM HOWARD 10th July 1950, Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A. d. 28th May 2019, Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A. - formerly of the Capitols) - 1968 - 2019, Larry 'Squirrel' Demps (b. The Dramatics All of the current members came to the awards as well as the mother of deceased member Lenny Mayes. They received national attention for their professionalism in 2001 when they performed a save for "Fly Jock" Tom Joyner, singing two sets during his show's appearance in Detroit on less than 12 hours notice after a cancellation by DeBarge. Oops, we were unable to send the email. Before assuming the name the Dramatics, the vocal sextet comprised of Rob Davis, Ron Banks, Larry Reed, Robert Ellington, Larry "Squirrel" Demps, and Elbert Wilkens initially released two singles as the Dynamics on the Wingate imprint that saw no chart action. Howard and Wilkins were forced to change the name of their group to "A Dramatic Experience". Please complete the captcha to let us know you are a real person. My Girl'. They were replaced by Larry James "L.J." Real Times Media. group were awarded a gold disc by the R.I.A.A. Their records on Wingate didnt chart, so they moved to Sport Records imprint where The Dramatics scored their first single All Because Of You. After Sport Records, the group joined the Stax-Volt Records in 1968. He was a member of The Dramatics from 1968 to 1973, after which he pursued a solo career that produced two singles, "Hold On To Your Dreams", and "You've Been A Part Of Me". of her memories regarding her late ex-husband. The Dramatics originally signed for Stax Records of Memphis, Tennessee in 1968, but moved on after one unsuccessful release. While the members at that time, Banks, Mayes Ford, Demps, baritone Larry J. Reynolds (born in Saginaw, Michigan, on January 27, 1952) and pianist James Mack Brown (born on August 5, 1952, in Dallas, Texas) were not satisfied with its limited record sales, the song did peak at # 42 on the R&B charts. The Dramatics were an R&B/soul/pop vocal group originating from Detroit, Michigan in the USA. stage, The Dramatics comprised of: William 'Wee Gee' Howard (ex. Please reset your password. until 1971 when the Detroit producers Don Davis and Tony Hestor signed the However, producer Don Davis re-signed them to Stax subsidiary, Volt in 1971 after the group teamed up with Detroit writer-producer, Tony Hester. In 1982, the group moved to Capitol Records and made their first album without Don Davis, with Banks acting as producer. While never reaching "supergroup" status in the public's eyes, the Dramatics have been one of the most prolific, consistently entertaining groups of the last half century. The The group started working with producer Tony Hester on a series of singles that establish the Dramatics unique harmonies and dynamic mixes of lead and backing vocals. The Dramatics are depicted centrally in the 2017, Kathryn Bigelow film Detroit, a dramatization of the Algiers Motel incident. The following year, the Dramatics did it again on the Top 10 pop chart with In The Rain which also became a million seller. at the time. Reynolds replaced William Wee Gee Howard in 1973, the core of the group was set for several decades. Dramatics they achieved major success with their songs, 'In the Rain' and WebWilliam "Wee Gee" Howard replaced lead singer Reed, and Willie Ford of the Capitols replaced bass Rob Davis. For more than four decades into their career, with over 38 charted singles, the Dramatics have stunned audiences all around the globe with their rich, sparkling vocal combination and unique sound that has crossed time, music genres, and generations, The Dramatics were an R&B/soul/pop vocal group originating from Detroit, Michigan in the USA. You are only allowed to leave one flower per day for any given memorial. They were replaced by Larry James "L.J." Shortly after the success of their first album, Howard and Wilkins left the group and formed their own version of The Dramatics, recording the single "No Rebate On Love" on Mainstream Records. The The Dramatics (formerly The Dynamics) are an American soul music vocal group, formed in Detroit, Michigan, in 1964. Drag images here or select from your computer for William Franklin Wee Gee Howard II memorial. Dramatic Way (MCA Records 1980), New They were replaced by Larry James "L.J." Dramatics singer Willie Sugar Bear All photos uploaded successfully, click on the Done button to see the photos in the gallery. Only Banks, Ford and Mayes remained in the group. Reynolds, Willie Ford, Winzell You have chosen this person to be their own family member. Dramatics later that year. performance at Detroit's Fox Theatre, during an alleged murder by members WebAfter leaving The Dramatics in 1972, he pursued a solo career. In Time (A Dramatic Reunion) (Fantasy Records 1986), The The album, Stone Cold followed in 1990 and then the album, If You Come Back to Me in 2000. On September 24, 2018 L.J. Reynolds, with Winzell Kelly, Leon Franklin, Donald Albert and Levell Thompson. WILLIAM HOWARD In 2013, the Dramatics were inducted into the R&B Music Hall of Fame. This solo career produced two singles, "Hold On To Your Dreams", and "You've Been A Part Of Me". He sang with a group called the Sir Primes whilst at high school. Howard later rejoined the original group for the albums 'Somewhere in Time: 'A Dramatic Experience' album), which became an R&B number 5 and pop RIP, Wee Gee! He is an actor, known for Up the Creek (1958), Further Up the Creek (1958) and Fredric March Presents Tales from Dickens (1959). They are best known for their 1970s hit songs "In the Rain" and "Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get", both of which were Top 10 Pop hits, as well as their later 1993 collaboration "Doggy Dogg World" with Snoop Dogg, a top 20 hit on theBillboardRhythmic Top 40. Please check your email and click on the link to activate your account. He was one the greatest bass singers of all-time, along with Melvin Franklin of The Temptations, said Michael Henderson, who produced songs for The Dramatics. in December 1971. Try again. This flower has been reported and will not be visible while under review. With Reynolds' gruff baritone and Ron Banks' soaring falsetto, Willie Ford's bass sound, the smooth Lenny Mayes and singer and group choreographer Larry Demps, a unique group harmony and stage show was created and that kept The Dramatics among the A-list of R&B acts for years to come. The Dramatics are an American soul music vocal group, formed in Detroit, Michigan, in 1964. He rejoined The Dramatics for their reunion in 1986, but left again in 1989. maintaining chart activity for fifteen weeks. With Reynolds' gruff baritone and Ron Banks' soaring falsetto, Willie Ford's bass sound, the smooth Lenny Mayes and singer and group choreographer Larry Demps, a unique group harmony and stage show was created and that kept The Dramatics at the top of the charts for the remainder of the 70s and early 80s. The following years proved to be fruitless for the Dramatics, until in 1971 they finally broke through via their single Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get. It was written by Tony Hester, who also produced the majority of the groups material. Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get climbed to #3 on the R&B singles chart, and #9 on the pop singles chart. Larry Squirrel Demps. Dramatics We have set your language to (b. Are you sure that you want to report this flower to administrators as offensive or abusive? They migrated to the Sport label and in 1967 released their first single to hit the charts, "All Because of You," which peaked at number 42 on the R&B charts. The Dramatics(formerlyThe Dynamics) are an American soul music vocal group, formed in Detroit, Michigan, in 1964. Reynolds went solo in 1981, and the group disbanded in 1983 when Banks went solo. Also during this time, the Dramatics had signed with producer Don Davis' production company. The Dramatics then moved to another local Detroit label, Sport Records, where they garnered their first minor hit single, "All Because of You." L.J. Howard Williams was born on 10 May 1932 in Colindale, England, UK. 23rd February 1949, Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A.) - 1962 to 1981, Leonard Cornell Mayes (b. [7] Their first release in 1965 entitled "Bingo" was recorded for Wingate, a division of Golden World Records in Detroit, Michigan. William Howard LOS ANGELES (Billboard) - Singer Ron Banks, a founding member of R&B group the Dramatics, died Thursday (March 4) at his Detroit home of a reported heart attack. Reynolds and Leonard "Lenny" Mayes (who died of lung cancer on November 8, 2004, at the age of 53). In 1982, the group moved to Capitol Records and made their first album without Don Davis, with Banks acting as producer. The following years proved to be fruitless for the Dramatics, until in 1971 they finally broke through via their single Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get. It was written by Tony Hester, who also produced the majority of the groups material. The single torpedoed its way to the number one spot on the R&B charts, maintaining that position for four consecutive weeks; the single also peaked at number five on the pop charts. Even though the group managed to stay together, the ensuing years were unproductive for chart action and sales. Continuing with this request will add an alert to the cemetery page and any new volunteers will have the opportunity to fulfill your request. 10th May 1951, Redford, Michigan, U.S.A. d. 4th March 2010, Sinai Hospital, Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A.) - 1971 to 2010, Larry Cleveland Reed (lead singer) (b.1948, Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A.) - 1962 to 1968, Elbert Wilkins (d. 13th December 1992, from a massive heart attack - formerly of the Theatrics) - 1962 to 1973, William 'Weegee' Howard (b. William Franklin Howard II, 13th July 1950, Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A., d. 22nd February 2000, Bronxville, New York, U.S.A.) - 1968 to 1973 then 1986 to 1989, Willie Lee Ford Jnr. Because Of You' b/w 'If You Haven't Got Love' - 1967 / Inky Dinky Wang Dang meantime, William Howard and Elbert Wilkins formed their own version of Following the home going services, a repast for Ford will be held at Berts Warehouse (2727 Russell). Edit a memorial you manage or suggest changes to the memorial manager. Detroit-based R&B vocal group was formed in 1967, and rose to stardom in 1971 with Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get.. During We are sad to inform SoulTrackers of the death of Willie Ford of The Dramatics, the man who held down the bottom end of those great Dramatics harmonies. Resend Activation Email, Please check the I'm not a robot checkbox, If you want to be a Photo Volunteer you must enter a ZIP Code or select your location on the map. When Ron Banks also decided to try a solo career, the group disbanded for a few years, but re-formed in the mid-1980s, with Howard returning to join Reynolds, Mayes, Ford and Banks to record for Fantasy Records. Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get climbed to #3 on the R&B singles chart, and #9 on the pop singles chart, maintaining chart activity for fifteen weeks. William Franklin Wee Gee Howard Quickly see who the memorial is for and when they lived and died and where they are buried. He was 58. Reynolds (previously of Chocolate Syrup) and Leonard The Dramatics, founded by Ron Banks (May 10, 1951 March 4, 2010),[2][3] Larry Demps, Rod Davis, Elbert Wilkins and Larry Reed, originally formed in 1964. Use Escape keyboard button or the Close button to close the carousel. The Dramatics were honored for their careers when they received the "Lifetime Achievement Award" at the2008 SoulTracks Readers' Choice Awards. In 2006, local Detroit developer Herb Strather honored the Dramatics (along with Freda Payne, the Four Tops and others), with a street named after the group in one of the newest neighborhoods being built in the city. Now King Charles must stay silent on pet projects like grammar He rejoined the Dramatics for their reunion in 1986, but left again in 1989. While other popular 70s groups had trouble sustaining recording careers, the Dramatics continued to cut a new LP every few years, right up through 2002's Look Inside, a surprisingly strong record that received limited distribution in the U.S. Is About To Start (Volt Records 2000), Through hits at ABC included the ballad 'Me And Mrs. Jones' (R&B number 4 and It wasn't Banks, whose sweet falsetto helped give the Dramatics its signature sound, was a Detroit native who was born May 10, 1951. the release of the group's first album, William Howard and Elbert Wilkins WebWilliam Howard later rejoined the original group for the albums 'Somewhere in Time: A Dramatic Reunion' in 1986, and 'Positive State Of Mind' in 1989. Elbert Wilkins Failed to report flower. Ron Banks of the Dramatics Passes Away He was 58. Dramatics singer Willie Sugar Bear In 2013, they were inducted into the National Rhythm and Blues Hall of Fame and the R&B Music Hall of Fame at Cleveland State University. This is a carousel with slides. Resend Activation Email. Dimension - 1982 / Somewhere Please contact Find a Grave at [emailprotected] if you need help resetting your password. Detroit-based R&B vocal group was formed in 1967, and rose to stardom in 1971 with Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get. Dramatic Way - 1980 / 10 1/2 - 1980. based on information from your browser. Ron Banks of the Dramatics Passes Away Me You Will (Fantasy Records 1987), L.J. African American History: Research Guides & Websites, Global African History: Research Guides & Websites, African American Scientists and Technicians of the Manhattan Project, Envoys, Diplomatic Ministers, & Ambassadors, https://michiganchronicle.com/2019/06/05/dramatics-singer-willie-sugar-bear-ford-dead-at-68/#/?playlistId=0&videoId=0.Rob, https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/ourrockandrollhalloffame71305/the-dynamic-dramatics-t3165.html, https://www.delafont.com/music_acts_extra/E/dramatics.htm, Foundation, Organization, and Corporate Supporters. Dramatics to the Memphis-based Stax Records What are Dirty Thunderstorms and When Do They Appear? WebAfter leaving The Dramatics in 1972, he pursued a solo career. [1] "Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get" was awarded gold disc status by the R.I.A.A. Ford and Davis were reared in Detroit. They split up in 1982 as Reynolds and Banks both embarked on solo careers (Reynolds achieving some limited success with the hit "Key to the World"), and Demps went back to school to become a teacher. The email does not appear to be a valid email address. the Dramatics. WebWilliam "Wee Gee" Howard replaced lead singer Reed, and Willie Ford of the Capitols replaced bass Rob Davis. Failed to delete flower. The follow-ups "In The Rain" and "Toast to the Fool" were even better, and have remained in active play on many stations ever since. William William Franklin Wee Gee Howard that year, The Dramatics were staying at the Algiers Motel, following a Recognising the past, promoting the present AND introducing the emerging future talent of quality soulful music worldwide! Dramatics Prior to joining The Dramatics, Ford sang with the Capitols. He was a member of The Dramatics from 1968 to 1973, after which he pursued a solo career that produced two singles, "Hold On To Your Dreams", and "You've Been A Part Of Me". WebHoward Williams. Reynolds replaced William "Wee Gee" Howard in 1973, the core of the group was set for several decades. Davis, then Banks and Reynolds took over production later in the 1970s and the early 1980s. WebThe Dramatics were honored for their careers when they received the "Lifetime Achievement Award" at the 2008 SoulTracks Readers' Choice Awards. What You Wanna Do RIP, Wee Gee! Their members at this time were Ron Banks,[12] William "Wee Gee" Howard, Elbert Wilkins, Willie Ford, and Larry Demps. He then left the group again. Dramatics were reunited in the late 80's and released 'Look Inside' for They ultimately found it on Stax/Volt Records with "Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get," a latin-tinged cut lyrically based on a comic phrase popularized by Flip Wilson. The Dramatics were officially inducted into the R&B Music Hall of Fame at Cleveland State University's Waetejen Auditorium on Saturday August 17, 2013. The Dramatics on Chess Records' subsidiary Cadet, together with The Dells, who were also being produced by Davis at the time. Howard Williams was born on 10 May 1932 in Colindale, England, UK. All of the current members came to the awards as well as the mother of deceased member Lenny Mayes. or don't show this againI am good at figuring things out. WebWilliam Howard. Howard Williams WebHoward and Wilkins left the Dramatics shortly after Watcha See Is Watcha Get became big at the charts, eventually forming their own group which is distinct from their former band (Howard later returned to the Dramatics fold). This spurred some legal proceedings between the original Dramatics and the Howard/Wilkens version, forcing the former group to re-name themselves as Rob Banks and the Dramatics. Reynolds and Lenny Mayes replaced Howard and Wilkins. Also during this time, the Dramatics had signed with producer Don Davis' production company. The Dramatics were inducted into National Rhythm and Blues Hall of Fame in 2013. The follow-ups "In The Rain" and "Toast to the Fool" were even better, and have remained in active play on many stations ever since. In 2006, the Dramatics were honored by the City of Detroit when a street was named after them in the Woodbridge Estates neighborhood. WebThe Dramatics Featuring Willie Ford focused on staying true to The Dramatics' original and easily recognizable concept of five part harmonies and five dynamic lead voices in the group, at their shows until his death at 68 years old, May 28, 2019 after having surgery. William Howard Larry was so affected by the incident, he never recorded again with the group, leaving to work and sing in the local church. [7] "In the Rain" also reached number 5 on the Hot 100 pop chart and was their second million-seller.[1]. However, in spite of the exposure and limited record sales, some groupmembers became discouraged, which facilitated a major personnel change. Music submissions & General enquiriesPlease feel free to send your music submissions and all general enquiries to: Advertising & MarketingTo find out more about the global marketing & advertising opportunities with WBSS Media, please email. Howard left, and was replaced by Larry L.J. Reynolds (formerly of Chocolate Syrup). William "Wee Gee" Howard - You Through the 1970s, the group continued to have successful songs, including the Top 10 Pop, #1 R&B hit, "In the Rain" in 1972, "Hey You! By the end of 1971, Davis summoned the group to the studio to record producer/songwriter Tony Hester's "Watcha See Is Watcha Get." Reynolds and Leonard "Lenny" Mayes (who died of lung cancer on November 8, 2004, at the age of 53). Two other members of the Dramatics also died of heart attacks (Elbert Wilkins in 1992 and William "Wee Gee" Howard in 2000). This relationship is not possible based on lifespan dates. The Dramatics signed with Stax Records of Memphis, Tennessee in 1968, but moved on after one unsuccessful release. WebWillie Ford was not as well known to casual fans as some of the other members of his iconic group, but listen to any Dramatics song, and youll hear the anchor that he provided, making each song a uniquely Dramatics song. He helped deliver a half century of joy to music fans around the world, and a discography that will live on. Originally formed in 1962, the Dramatics (at various times) consisted of: The Roderick Davis was in the hotel at the time, and was singled out by the Police Officers. Only Banks, Ford and Mayes remained in the group. Dells vs. Soul - funk singer (Born on 13.07.1950 in Detroit, Michigan - Died on 22.02.2000 in New York, U.S.A.) a.k.a. Larry "L.J." He was 58. He rejoined The Dramatics for their reunion in 1986, but left again in 1989, replaced by Steve Boyd-Barnett. Get Off My Mountain' (taken from the Now King Charles must stay silent on pet projects like grammar One group was led by L.J. [9], The Dramatics signed with Stax Records of Memphis, Tennessee in 1968, but moved on after one unsuccessful release, the 1969 Temptations-inspired tune "Your Love Was Strange" (Volt VOA 4029), written by group members Ron Banks, William "Wee Gee" Howard, and Elbert "Al" Wilkins, which got regional airplay, but never charted nationally. The Following Banks' death, a battle over the group's name emerged, resulting in two traveling groups now holding the Dramatics name: a more familiar one led by L. J. Reynolds (and featuring Kelly, Donald Albert and Leon Franklin) and another new group led by Ford. Willie Ford also has a Dramatics group. Dramatics were replaced by L.J. 'This Love Is For Real'). After Howard left the Dramatics, Reynolds became a permanent member in 1973. "In the Rain" also reached #5 on the Hot 100 pop chart and was their second million-seller. in 1971, where the group saw greater success with their song 'Whatcha See There is 1 volunteer for this cemetery. William Howard WILLIAM HOWARD Also during this time, the Dramatics had signed with producer Don Davis' production company. Anyplace (MCA Records 1979), The Reynolds and Lenny Mayes replaced Howard and Wilkins. The Dramatics You need a Find a Grave account to continue. Sadly, more core members of the group died in the next decade, with Banks passing in 2010 and Ford in 2019, and there were some legal wranglings over the group name.
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